Posts by Faithful Witness

48

Strike 3 for the elderette and me! (???) I never heard a JW talk SO much about Jesus!

by Faithful Witness in

miss k and her friend miss w arrived promptly today.

our scheduled topic of discussion: jesus' claim to be "the way, the truth and the life..." john 14:6 since she was basing this topic choice on the fact that i had quoted that verse, i'm not sure why... she spent what seemed like a very long time, hopping through scriptures that all said that jesus was the truth, the way, or the life.

ok, so we agreed... i kept waiting for her to get to a point, or sway from this principle.. of course, she summed up with scriptures that show how jesus submits to the father, and what does that mean we should do?

Faithful Witness

Blondie: Thanks for those references! Great points. I am learning a lot from this lady, and yesterday she told me she is enjoying the challenge, and the chance to defend her beliefs.

48

Strike 3 for the elderette and me! (???) I never heard a JW talk SO much about Jesus!

by Faithful Witness in

miss k and her friend miss w arrived promptly today.

our scheduled topic of discussion: jesus' claim to be "the way, the truth and the life..." john 14:6 since she was basing this topic choice on the fact that i had quoted that verse, i'm not sure why... she spent what seemed like a very long time, hopping through scriptures that all said that jesus was the truth, the way, or the life.

ok, so we agreed... i kept waiting for her to get to a point, or sway from this principle.. of course, she summed up with scriptures that show how jesus submits to the father, and what does that mean we should do?

Faithful Witness

Robert: She asked me if I wanted to continue, and I said I had to think about it. I told her I have been tossing it around in my mind, since the only in-depth perspective I have taken on "the bible" was using that guide published by the Watchtower. I feel that I need a better bible foundation, before I can really discuss things with her fairly. Right now, we have left it open-ended. I told her I would get back to her, and she said she'd check with me later in the week.

She really wants me to go through the Bible Teach book with her again, and I have to consider that. (I have a friend who is severely warning me to stay away from her, for my own protection... and I even told her that. She was very curious about my friend, and her beliefs. I told her I wasn't going to defend someone else's beliefs, as she started picking her apart).

Searcher: I tested the waters yesterday, when I told them I had read some of the recent articles. "I know what kind of things are being said about anyone who dares to question things." (we have agreed that we are only discussing what the bible says, so quoting the Watchtower is not going to work).

I even confessed that we had attended the meetings where they made adjustments last fall. I told her how curious it was, to see people suddenly come to life, when they got to the questions about the preaching WORK.

She quickly jumped in and asked me if she and Miss W had come and told her anything that was not found in the bible. (sigh)

It was somewhere around this time, when she opened the apostate door again for me. She said, "I know there is so much information on the internet... and I can tell you that 95% of it is lies." She also mentioned news or TV shows.

I didn't let her get away with that again. So I said, "Like what? What is one of the lies being spread on the internet?"

She paused to think of her answer. I was hoping for something juicy, but no... "Like that JW's don't belive in Jesus." (sigh again... REALLY? Please use google next time and get back to me with a different lie to defend!)

When she was trying to convince me to go through the Bible Teach book with her, I reminded her that I've done that whole book already. I told her what our experience was, with our first teacher. We got to the end of the book, and stumbled upon a video of an old Christian talk show. John Ankerberg was interviewing a panel of former Jehovah's witnesses. The things they said made our jaws drop. "I remember, I was bawling and saying that there had to be an explanation for the things they were saying..." I could tell they were getting nervous, so I didn't talk about anything that was said. I told her we were hoping that Elder E had a good explanation, so we showed him the video. After about 5 minutes, he said, "Oh, they are APOSTATES!!!" and he turned his back and refused to address anything these people were saying. I said to Miss K, "One of the ladies was of the annointed class. One man had worked for the writitng department, answering people's letters. There was another couple that was prominent in the organization. They were still Christians, and seemed like honest and sincere people. They were JW's! Just because they are no longer JW's, that means that everything they say is a lie???" I told her how Elder E had started going on about how these people were "fornicators! idolators! liars!" Then I did mention that we had asked him if he could get us a copy of the article about 1975, the magazine that the man was holding up... at this point, Miss W jumped in and said, "There were NEVER any predictions made about 1975!" I didn't push it, but I did want to ask her why she was in such a hurry to get baptized in 1973. (I know you are 75'ers... but we won't go there, when I don't have to prove anything in the past was wrong. What you are teaching today has enough holes).

She didn't really answer any of those concerns, but later said, "It sounds like some trust has been violated." I'm pretty sure she was talking about what I had told her about Elder E.

A few times she said, "It seems like there are some FLAGS being raised in your mind about the JW's." I kept hoping that she would say something like, "there's nothing wrong with being in a cult, if it pleases Jehovah..." hahaha I didn't go for the throat.

I do understand that Jesus told them to go and make disciples, and preach to the far corners of the earth. He did not, however, tell them to write it down and report it back to their congregation, so they could keep track. She did mention the numbers that were recorded, about how many were baptized, how many were at pentecost. I added, but there are no specific instructions from Jesus or even Paul, that they should continue to track their efforts and report how much time they are spending spreading the good news. "No, but Jehovah DID use specific men, and the people were supposed to follow their instructions..."

One other thing she brought up, and I think it was when we were still discussing whether Jesus actually told them to call Jehovah "Father," or by his name. She mentioned the Lord's Prayer. (she didn't know the whole thing by heart... I found that interesting). She said, "Do you think people realize what they are actually praying for, when they recite that prayer?" I gave her a puzzled look.

"Our Father, in the heavens, let your name be sanctified, Let your Kingdom come... Do they really think about what they are praying for?"

I said it was a nice prayer to say in unison with a large group, but most people do not probably think about that part of the prayer, no.

She said, "Do you think they realize that they are actually praying for Jehovah to cause destruction to this system, and that so many people are going to die at Armageddon before the Kingdom will be restored?" or something like that... like the people are praying for their own destruction. Did you ever think of that?? (No, most people don't think of the kingdom coming that way... I'd have to agree... haha)

I said, "I like the part about forgiveness, where we ask for forgiveness and remind ourselves to forgive each other. Forgiveness is one of the main points of that prayer, since that is what Christ came here to do for us."

This was leading into our discussion about why they decided to add Jehovah's name to the New Testament (and other changes in their new translation of the NWT).

48

Strike 3 for the elderette and me! (???) I never heard a JW talk SO much about Jesus!

by Faithful Witness in

miss k and her friend miss w arrived promptly today.

our scheduled topic of discussion: jesus' claim to be "the way, the truth and the life..." john 14:6 since she was basing this topic choice on the fact that i had quoted that verse, i'm not sure why... she spent what seemed like a very long time, hopping through scriptures that all said that jesus was the truth, the way, or the life.

ok, so we agreed... i kept waiting for her to get to a point, or sway from this principle.. of course, she summed up with scriptures that show how jesus submits to the father, and what does that mean we should do?

Faithful Witness

The whole time, she kept repeating how we get to the FATHER through JESUS... no one can get to JEHOVAH without JESUS.

She snuck in a few comments about those that Jesus was working with today, and did bring me to a few verses that showed where Jesus was going to give his authority and power BACK to God later.

But I must say, she really played the Jesus card.

48

Strike 3 for the elderette and me! (???) I never heard a JW talk SO much about Jesus!

by Faithful Witness in

miss k and her friend miss w arrived promptly today.

our scheduled topic of discussion: jesus' claim to be "the way, the truth and the life..." john 14:6 since she was basing this topic choice on the fact that i had quoted that verse, i'm not sure why... she spent what seemed like a very long time, hopping through scriptures that all said that jesus was the truth, the way, or the life.

ok, so we agreed... i kept waiting for her to get to a point, or sway from this principle.. of course, she summed up with scriptures that show how jesus submits to the father, and what does that mean we should do?

Faithful Witness

Miss K and her friend Miss W arrived promptly today. Our scheduled topic of discussion: Jesus' claim to be "the way, the truth and the life..." John 14:6 Since she was basing this topic choice on the fact that I had quoted that verse, I'm not sure why... she spent what seemed like a very long time, hopping through scriptures that all said that Jesus was the truth, the way, or the life. Ok, so we agreed... I kept waiting for her to get to a point, or sway from this principle.

Of course, she summed up with scriptures that show how Jesus submits to the Father, and what does that mean we should do? (blink blink) - I hate when she does that weird 'What does THAT mean...???" type open-ended question. It makes me feel like I'm guessing, and how am I supposed to read a crazy JW's mind? So I'd say an answer, and follow it with, "Is that what you were looking for?"

So she kept pointing out how Jesus submits to the Father. Ok. Got it. So therefore... we submit to Jesus, and do what... ?? Follow his commands, beginning with his greatest commandment, love.

She keeps assuming that if she puts my questions "aside" or "on the shelf" for now, that I am just going to agree that she is teaching the truth. Since we have agreed to only discuss inspired writings, she does not make me read WT literature to reason me into a corner. We hopped around a little bit, because she really is fishing for what I don't agree with from the JW's.

She wants me to limit my comments to our experiences together. She asked, "Have we (motioning to Miss W & herself) come here, and taught you anything that wasn't true, and taught in the bible?" I answered, "Well... There is that claim about the faithful and discreet slave, and how the JW's have turned a parable into a prophecy about themselves. That doesn't make sense to me, how you can pluck a single verse from the bible, and use it to claim absolute power over millions of people."

So, we again returned to Matthew 24. I looked at the chapter, and I started skimming through it, asking her how they came to the conclusion that Jesus appointed them in 1914, based on this one verse in the parable that compares what it means to be a faithful or evil servant. I paraphrased the parables and stories around it... the fig tree, the 10 virgins, these other 3 slaves, and how they behaved...

Why would this one verse actually be a prophecy about someone being appointed sometime in the future?

She started looking at the verse, word by word... asked me, "What do you think this means, if The Lord appoints someone over his household?" I said, "Back in those days, rich people or lords, had slaves, right? I'm thinking of the story of Joseph, where he was in charge of the household while the master was away, so would also be in charge of making sure all the slaves got their meals on time... Not hogging all the food for himself... (grin)

"What do you think this means? Meat in due season? What is meat, or food, as it says in my bible?" I again said, "It could actually be FOOD, but I know your interpretation is spiritual food... meaning that someone is supposed to interpret your beliefs for you... and what about the evil slave? Who is that?"

She had no answer, but tried to switch to something else... and I added, "then there are these other 3 slaves mentioned here, right after... I think all of these parables are examples for us to follow, where he compares how different people respond to him and his teachings. You can be faithful, or you can be evil."

She was not satisfied with that answer, but I think it was at that point that the topic of the slave went back on the shelf in her brain.

There was no more reaching her, because as soon as she can't answer something or back up her claims from the bible, she repeats the line, "Well, I just know the JW's have the truth. I just know it. i wouldn't be here, if I didn't know it."

She asked me if I thought about looking at the bible from a "fresh perspective."

I told her I was finally doing that, after being taught once from the JW Bible Teach book. I am actually reading the bible for the first time, and in my study of the book of Matthew, i came to a realization. There is a BIG difference between having someone come and tell you how to understand the bible, and actually just READING it for yourself.

I told her that as I read the words of Jesus, I felt that he seemed to be often talking about the JW's, and that a lot of what he said contradicted what I had been taught.

She said, "Like what?" and I took her to the first one that really did stick out for me in my bible study. Matthew 6:1-5, where Jesus warns them about doing their works, to be recognized by men. This hit a nerve.

Matthew 6:1-5 “Take care not to practice your righteousness in front of men to be noticed by them; otherwise you will have no reward with your Father who is in the heavens. 2 So when you make gifts of mercy, do not blow a trumpet ahead of you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be glorified by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 3 But you, when making gifts of mercy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your gifts of mercy may be in secret. Then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you. 5 “Also, when you pray, do not act like the hypocrites, for they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the main streets to be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full."

I said, "Why do you write down and keep track of all your work, then turn it in to be recognized by men? When I read that, it reminded me of my mom talking about her field service report, and it just filled me with this sinking feeling of dread."

Miss K said, "We aren't being glorified by men! We are not sounding trumpets and hollering on street corners! What I do for Jehovah's organization, I do out of LOVE. I am not compelled to do it. They don't force me to do it. I do it out of LOVE. I choose to do it."

Miss W piped in with similar comments.

They were both clearly upset by this accusation... so I asked it a different way. "Why do you report your hours, if not for recognition?"

Miss K, "So the brothers can keep track of it."

I said, "GOD is keeping track... let's look here, it says..."

She interrupted, "I'm not getting any recognition or glorification from men for my work! I do it out of LOVE not because it is required!"

So I said, "Is it true that there are different 'levels' or titles within the congregation, based on how much work you do?"

She said, "No..." I said, "Pioneer..."

"Yes, I'm a pioneer..."

I said, "Does that require a set number of hours to earn that title?"

"Yes, I commit to doing a certain number of hours every month. But I do it out of LOVE!"

Miss W piped in, "and I'm NOT a pioneer, but that is because Miss K has more ability in that area, and..." she couldn't come up with a very good explanation about why she didn't work as hard as Miss K, but she clearly felt like she needed to explain herself. (it was sad to watch)

So I asked Miss K, "What happens if you don't turn in a time card at the end of the month?"

She said, "Well to be honest, I'm not going to make my hours this month. I have relatives staying over, and that's just how it is... (looking slightly ashamed) but I'm not going to get my hours this month, it's just a fact of life!"

I said, "What if you don't turn in a time card at all? What would happen?"

"They would just call me and get my hours from me. Nothing would HAPPEN!" (I'd say someone calling me and making me give a report, is actually something happening, but I didn't comment)

She just thought this whole idea was ridiculous, and why would it even bother me so much... "Well, if you're going to worry about THAT... why we fill out time cards, well..."

I said, "I don't understand why you are collecting your rewards from men, when Jesus clearly said to do your good deeds in secret."

"The society is keeping track, so they can show that the work is being done." said Miss K.

I again said, "GOD is keeping track! He sees you. You don't need to keep track for him! I think He can handle it."

Miss W chimed in, "Maybe I can help clarify the reason for this. Every year the JW's publish a yearbook..." and she proceeded to tell me a load of BS about how valuable it was to see those numbers in print. She was so encouraged to see the attendance reports from the Memorials held around the world.

"That is an attendance report... Why do you have to report the millions of hours you work each year?"

They clearly didn't think I had the right take on this instruction from Jesus. It didn't relate to a field service report at all... The society needed to keep track, so they knew that the JW's had preached to every corner of the world.

"But you DO write your name on the card, right?"

"Yes, but my name is not sent on to the branch or to New York..."

I said, "They keep it on file in your KH?"

She clearly wasn't getting the point, so I switched gears and asked her, "How much fruit have you seen from the door to door preaching work? How many new members have come in, due to the field ministry?'

Miss K went on to list several people she had converted to JW. I said, "OK, so you converted a number of people into the JW's." She corrected me, "OH NO! I didn't CONVERT anyone. They decided for themselves!"

"I know, I know, free will..."

In case you haven't figured this out yet, I did not manage to cut our time this week. I did actually speak up and talk, and even though she ran the bible verse hopping show, I kept the conversation going for much longer than planned.

She kept stacking lies and telling me they were truth... I will add the details of our interesting discussion about their use of Jehovah in the New Testament.

I wonder if any thought crossed their minds, as they filled in their time on their FS reports today.

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

Faithful Witness

These are great responses! notjustyet, my husband likes your suggestion the best. :)

20

So my mom called me out on Facebook today

by lriddle80 in

my dad posts the daily text on facebook everyday.

today's text had to do with disfellowshipping and this is what my mom commented on it:.

mom: i have a daughter also who is baptized but not disfellowshipped but doesn't want to learn about jehovah i pray that she see's soon before jehovah closes the door!.

Faithful Witness

lriddle: This is a great story! Thanks for sharing it.

I had a similar experience, going to a Baptist church. It's good to hear you have found a "church home."

twice shy said: "Wasn't it so nice to hear them use Jehovah's name in song. We were taught they don't recognize him as GOD ALMIGHTY."

My elderette today, told me that it is because of the JW's, that the churches are now acknowledging and using Jehovah's name. Thanks to the JW's, of course! ;) Without them knocking on every door in the world, no one would ever know God's name!

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

Faithful Witness

So they will keep coming back, no matter what I say?

Are the service hours their main focus?

Will what I say to one, stop another from coming to the door?

2

Do different congregations compare notes on householders or their bible students?

by Faithful Witness in

i have posted other threads about my studies with an elderette, that began a few weeks ago.

we live in the territory of a kh in another zip code, but when we moved here we did not realize that.

we went to the kh that shared our post office.

Faithful Witness

I have posted other threads about my studies with an elderette, that began a few weeks ago.

We live in the territory of a KH in another zip code, but when we moved here we did not realize that. We went to the KH that shared our post office. We are in a rural area, but the JW's seem to be very active and present here.

Our bible study was with the KH we attended, but we would get called on during campaigns and at other times, by the KH that we are supposedly assigned to. They never let on that they knew what the other was doing, although it was a running joke.

Do they compare notes? Are there any times or certain things that would make them alert the other KH about you?

I'm curious, because the local KH seems to still be calling on us, even though I ask more challenging questions when they come to the door. They never make return visits, but we still get invitations and the occasional Saturday morning visitor.

Does one cong, send the other over, etc...

AND does it ever go even FARTHER than that? Would there ever be a reason for them to contact the KH where my parents are members, which is over 60 miles away? Will they seek out my parents, for something I say or talk about?

In my conversations with Miss K, I have expressed concerns over my mom being confused about their changes, yet having no one that she can ask questions to. Last time Miss K was here, she was asking where my parents lived... It didn't sound like fishing for their exact location or congregation, but I do not trust this woman.

I don't want word to get out to my parents, or to their elders especially, that I am opposing the society. Would they then be instructed to avoid me? I know that non-believing relatives are considered bad association, but right now I think my parents believe I am still interested and just have questions. They secretly hope I will "come back." I'm not dishonest about it.

I also don't want my dealings with Miss K to stop other JW's from coming to my door. What do you write on the territory card, when a householder asks questions that challenge the society or set off an alarm in your head? Are there specific things that people say, that cause a negative mark? Is it more likely that they will come, if they know I am going to answer the door and talk to them? Or do they avoid that house, because they don't want to face the questions from Satan?

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

Faithful Witness

I have not yet received any communication from her. I've been expecting to get a text, confirming our appointment today. I guess there is a possibility that she is chickening out... although she seemed like she wanted to talk about the "truth, the way, and the life."

I continue to wrestle with how to handle this situation. I am not claiming some high calling or anything, but it really seems like the JW's keep appearing all around me, and I know they need help. "Get out of her, you people!" I suspect that I have shaken 1 or 2, as they never came back to answer the questions I posed to them from their own bibles.

Am I supposed to continue trying to help this lady? I know many here do not believe in God anymore, but what is His will in this situation?

Should I run and protect myself from her? Should I continue to plant seeds of doubt? Should I allow her to read that Bible Teach book with me, which will allow me to help her see it for what it really is?

Why does she keep coming back here?

My friend came over yesterday, and suggested that Miss K has been sent to me from the org... like they were conspiring to get to me or something. I don't buy that idea at all, since we live in the territory of one KH, and Miss K goes to another. (we attended the "wrong" one, which was in our zip code). Also, I first ran into her at the store and then a chance meeting at a gas station, leading to a long conversation and her offer to come over.

The same friend is worried that I should not be letting her into my house, as she is a heretic and a deceiver. I've expressed my concerns (and those of cultBgone and others) that Miss K could gain influence over me, if I just let her take control of the conversation every time.

Another friend from a bible study group I belong to, suggested that Miss K has a demon attached to her, and that I should pray over my house and all around it before she comes inside. LOL. I don't know about all THAT...

After making declarations that I "just don't have time to deal with this," I started getting these nagging reminders in my mind that it is not for me to always understand the purpose of the trials and challenges in my life. Maybe I should consider continuing my meetings with her, under different conditions. We can meet for shorter times. I can have my turn to speak and actually finish my sentences. Meet every 2 weeks, instead of every week.

The concern that keeps coming into my mind, is the consequence of ending these sessions by my own choice.

Will the decision to quit meeting with her, mark me in some way? Will the JW's stop calling on me, or will even more of them start avoiding me when they see me in public?

I have been put in a unique situation to reach out. I have inside information, but still enjoy the freedom to talk to most JW's I see. I don't want them to stop coming to my door, either. Do the different congregations communicate with each other and compare notes?

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

Faithful Witness

punkofnice: That is a great question! I have been asking myself this, since I made the first appointment. I honestly never thought it would go past one meeting. The only reason I have kept meeting with her, is that she keeps coming back! I've scared away every JW who has come to my door in the last 2 years, even though I have invited them back. They don't like my questions, and when we start reading the bible from a passage that I ask about, they suddenly have to leave.

I have been sort of winging it, chipping away at the organization and the things she is so proud of.

I have read lots of opinions and experiences from ex-JW's, and people who care about JW's. The Watchtower has divided my family. I've seen the news reports of the scandals in the Watchtower organization. I've read "apostate" websites, done my own research (as the JW's love to say they do... when do you have time for that??).

I am taking her advice. I still have questions about the JW's. Instead of reading about them, I'm asking one directly.

Based on the recent articles I have read (and I have not read all of them), and the questions that I have been asking her, she is not following the instructions that are being dispensed to her. I have revealed myself, on each of her visits. The only thing I have not done, is quote from their literature and present her with apostate information. (She knows I know, but we have agreed to stick with "inspired" writing).

When I agreed to the first appointment, I thought it wouldn't go beyond that. When I didn't come to the conclusion that Jesus appointed a faithful and discreet slave to feed people their spiritual food after 1914, she wanted to talk about something else.

She came the 2nd time, and tried to prove that JW's are teaching the truth (and therefore everyone else is teaching lies). She asked if JW's taught anything that wasn't true, and I challenged her on the use of the name of Jehovah, even above Jesus Christ (name above all names). I asked her when Jesus told us to call God by his first name. She couldn't prove that either, although she apparently believes that Jesus DID tell us to do that, and it was one of the main reasons He came (to sanctify God's name, which Jesus is never on record as saying the name out loud. He always called him Father... Why didn't he tell us how to pronounce it? Oh, (she said) they changed the bible (removed Jehovah's name in the NT)... Is the bible the true and accurate word of God, or not?).

She might think that I am going to agree to indefinitely allow her to come to my home and make me listen to her rambling on about why she is teaching the truth. She is not even going to get started tomorrow. I've already done the whole Teach book with the JW's.

She asked me last week, if I would be willing to "look at the bible with a fresh perspective."

Since I AM already doing just that, by actually READING the bible, I don't see what she has to offer me. I'm declining her offer, and will be glad to tell her why. Been there, done that. I've already looked from JW perspective. Thank you all for confusing me so much!

I think my initial reason in meeting her, was to try to wake her up and look at her own religion for what it is. She just keeps defending the lies and the changes, doesn't mind being confused about what she actually believes, what instructions they are preparing to give her, etc. She proudly proclaims that none of that matters (or she doesn't need to understand it), because she just knows that JW's have the truth and are pleasing Jehovah God, and then asking me what other things I have questions about.

Tomorrow will be our last meeting, unless SHE wants me to show HER a new perspective. (Is that why she keeps coming back?)